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Post by clueless on Aug 1, 2014 4:46:48 GMT -6
The following post was made by reddarin in May 2014, I only changed the month. Thanks Darin for a great introduction.
Welcome to the August Nutritional Ketosis thread!
What exactly is NK? The concise description is here: link.
Your goal is a low total carb, high fat and moderate daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. Total carbs are 50g or less. In short: Eat your required protein grams, keep total carbs at or under 50g and the rest of your calories are fat.
Keep your calorie deficit moderate to lose weight. Tweak to individualize the plan. The fundamental shift to fat for fuel, nutritional ketosis, takes two to four weeks and sometimes longer - even much longer - you didn't get overweight overnight you won't enter a state of NK overnight either so be patient. The health benefits of eating LC are generally realized within days.
The following section describes how you create your beginning macros.
Protein In the book, Drs. Phinney and Volek recommend 1.5-2.0g/kg reference weight for protein grams. Dr. Phinney also covered that in the Long Term Stalls podcast. Interestingly, in a Fat Burning Man podcast, at 16:53, Jimmy Moore mentioned to Abel James that Dr. Phinney leaned more towards 1.0-1.5 grams per kg of reference weight.
Reference weight is the appropriate weight for your height as described in a height/weight chart. Although it doesn't need to be exact, it is important to use the weight that is closest to correct for you with the formula because overeating protein can interfere with weight loss - (from gluconeogenesis or not). So use the right weight even if you have a higher intermediate goal weight. You can check your frame size for a better estimation of the right reference weight for yourself. Frame size is described here.
Divide pounds by 2.2 to get kg so the concise formula looks like this: (reference_weight/2.2)*1.5 = daily protein grams.
For example: Your ideal weight is 150 pounds...
(150lbs/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein a day.
Protein II Use the 1.5-2.0g/kg from the published book as your start point. It is much easier to start at the high end and tweak down if needed than the reverse. If you are coming from a very low calorie plan you probably need the extra protein to rebuild lost muscle mass anyway.
Fat Most of your calories should come from fat.
Carbs 50g total carbs (not net) or less.
Calories According to Dr. Phinney, an obese person burns about 30kCal per kg of weight and a moderately active adult close to their correct weight burns 35kCal per kg of weight. He attributes the difference, 30 to 35, to an obese person being more sedentary than a person at the right weight for their body.
From page 207 of The Art and Science of Low Carb Living:
"As an aside, the casual reader might protest that these energy expenditure numbers look pretty high. But for anyone that has worked with obese humans in a metabolic research ward, 30kcal per kg of actual body weight in the sedentary obese and 35 kcal/kg in the post-obese moderately active adult are actually quite conservative expenditure values."
For example: You are fat, your goal weight is 150 and right now you weigh 225.
225lb current calorie expenditure --> (225/2.2)*30 = 3068 150lb goal weight calorie expenditure --> (150/2.2)*35 = 2386
Calories II How much should you eat? I don't know but it is probably not as little as you think. As you can see from Dr. Phinney's clinical experience, you don't need to starve yourself to lose weight. An obese person that is burning ~3,000 calories a day can lose weight eating 1800 to 2000 calories a day unless there are health issues that come into play - thyroid, adrenals, et. al.
There are many health risks related to eating very low calories, like loss of lean body mass and metabolism down regulation, and it is hard to stick to a plan with very low calories. Very low calorie plans frequently result in binges which will wreck your efforts at NK. Start high and work down as needed but go down slowly. Panic is the enemy of success.
Macros Macro ratios are a great tool to help you keep an eye on what you are doing but they can be very deceptive. 15% protein at 1500 calories is very different from 15% at 3000 calories. You can have great looking macros that are hiding terrible real numbers. Don't get stuck on macro percentages. Always check your protein grams to make sure you are eating to your goal.
Exercise You do not need to exercise to lose weight. Period. Exercise is a poor tool for weight loss. What you eat is far, far more important for weight loss (and maintenance). Exercise for health. Get that straight in your mind. If you are exercising it is not for weight loss it is for health. Say it out loud. Write it down. Put a note on the fridge. If you have much to lose, consider putting off exercise entirely at least until you are well acquainted with how you are eating.
The belief that exercise is the magical key for weight loss/maintenance is so ingrained into our thinking after decades of propaganda from the Exercise Mafia, it is practically impossible to get people to rethink this shoddy paradigm.
Really. The AHA and the ACSM admitted it in their report under the Obesity, Gaining, and Losing Weight heading:
Physical Activity and Public Health: Updated Recommendation for Adults From the American College of Sports Medicine and the American Heart Association.
It is reasonable to assume that persons with relatively high daily energy expenditures would be less likely to gain weight over time, compared with those who have low energy expenditures. So far, data to support this hypothesis are not particularly compelling (57)
Even they don't believe themselves because they go on to recommend exercise for weight control. Whew. *That* is some kinda brainwashing right there.
Aside from the facts, which won't dissuade 99.99% of everyone, exercise has a risk factor that is never mentioned by its champions. Getting yourself injured is not going to help you lose weight. Not because of decreased activity which has nothing to do with weight loss in the first place, but from the systemic inflammation that injury brings about, stuck in the hospital where they are not going to let you do LC, losing control of what you eat because you have to rely on family or friends for food, etc. If you are going to exercise, do it right. Avoid exercise fads and high risk questionable techniques. If someone wants you to get on a medicine ball to do a barbell squat - run away. Stick to the basics and stay safe. Don't be an idiot because there are a gym full of idiots grinning at you and encouraging you to be one with them.
Okay, so you have decided to throw science to the wind and exercise anyway. I knew you would. What exercise should you do? What exercise can impact weight loss indirectly?
Proper strength training. Cardio is not a fat burner. Remember the note you taped to your fridge.
Dr. Doug McGuff M.D. wrote Body By Science. I doubt you will find a better program for strength training that fits NK so completely. If you have access to a gym you can do his exact regimen as long as they have the right machines. If you do not have access to the gym, the book gives a barbell version of the Big 5 you can do at home. You can also follow his regimen by substituting bodyweight exercises that fit the Big 5 categories he describes. Drew Baye has a demo video for the UXS product but it is full of excellent general information for doing a HIT bodyweight regimen. Typically correctly implemented HIT programs take half an hour to one hour a week.
Along with McGuff, Bill DeSimone has spent years studying the mechanical function of the body. He describes how to do training safely with minimal risk of injury and how to avoid stresses that create injuries, days, weeks, months or years in the future. You should read/listen/view what DeSimone has to say no matter what type of exercise you do.
Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh-in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.
Tape Measure You should measure yourself periodically. Knowing that you are losing inches can help keep you from wildly tweaking what you are doing when what you are doing is working even if the scale is saying otherwise. And it feels good to know you have lost inches.
A Lot To Lose Consider this when you have a lot to lose.
Sodium Consider your own health condition and any Rx meds but... low carb is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You must get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body excretes potassium if it is forced to conserve sodium because you are not getting enough. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily. That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and dun your former salt eschewing ways.
The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.
Previous Threads
NK - April 2014 Version NK - March 2014 Version NK - February 2014 Version NK - January 2014 Version NK - December 2013 Version NK - November 2013 Version NK - October 2013 Version NK - September 2013 Version NK - August 2013 Version NK - July 2013 Version NK - June 2013 Version NK - May 2013 Version
Notes Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.
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Post by clueless on Aug 1, 2014 4:54:26 GMT -6
Wow Storytha! This is some awesome motivation! You can do it! I bet the atmosphere at the gym will have a lot to do with it. Where ever you feel the most comfortable is where you will like working out. And with 105 F outside, maybe where ever you will be the coolest
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Post by clueless on Aug 1, 2014 4:56:41 GMT -6
I am so excited! I have posted some of my watercolor paintings on Facebook and sold a couple of them. If you wanna come by and see them I love it. Let me know what ya think?? www.facebook.com/cheryl.tolbert.75
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rejoicealways8
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 1, 2014 6:19:26 GMT -6
Gosh--August already! Thanks Cheryl for posting this for us.
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storytha
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Post by storytha on Aug 1, 2014 11:42:54 GMT -6
Yay August. Thanks Cheryl!! August is going to be Awesome!!! I am so pumped! I'm having a wonderful time eating to plan and going to start a mini treadmill activity tonight. DH & DS won't be home so I won't have an audience (which I hate). Saturday, DD and I will be going school clothes shopping (and maybe find me a new swim suit & wrap) plus I really want to make it to the farmer's market on Sunday. My friend runs it but it's a 35 minute drive (yuk). But I'm craving garden tomatoes after seeing some of your posts. And I'm out of cauliflower (gasp).
Very nice watercolors, Cheryl! Thanks for sharing.
Have a great Weekend. I will try to check in but it's harder on my cell.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 14:16:26 GMT -6
I made my first trip to Trader Joes today. The store was small and a little disappointing, but I will probably go back for specialty items. I got bacon ends & pieces, chili lime chicken burgers, sliced roast turkey, bacon cheddar, coffee beans, and dark chocolate. The bacon ends were super cheap at $3 for 1 lb and coffee beans were priced at $5.49 for 14 oz. Not bad!
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storytha
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Post by storytha on Aug 1, 2014 16:38:04 GMT -6
I made my first trip to Trader Joes today. The store was small and a little disappointing, but I will probably go back for specialty items. I got bacon ends & pieces, chili lime chicken burgers, sliced roast turkey, bacon cheddar, coffee beans, and dark chocolate. The bacon ends were super cheap at $3 for 1 lb and coffee beans were priced at $5.49 for 14 oz. Not bad! Oh, I'm jealous. We've been trying to get a Trader Joes here forever. I've never been to one but my friends rave about it and you can buy "Two buck Chuck"- a good $2.00 bottle of red wine. Closest one is 145 miles away. No thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 17:03:50 GMT -6
ugh, I'm feeling bloated and uncomfortable. Some of that is PMS but also from eating more carbs. I think for the next couple of weeks I'm going to try to eat very low carb, but not count calories. Maybe that way it won't feel like restriction.
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rejoicealways8
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 2, 2014 5:37:26 GMT -6
I was in a Traders Joe's in Santa Barbara back in 2011 and I miss whatever the excitement is about...meaning I didn't get what was so special about one. I was only a visitor in town for a training event and wasn't in the store much though I did buy a few things. Perhaps one needs be able to troll the aisles a bit more before understanding what the buzz around a Trader Joe's is about.
Mom's daytime help was sick yesterday so I spent the day with her beginning at 9 a.m. We got out and about, I was able to get the work done I had scheduled for the day without having to delay anything. A different woman is scheduled to appear this morning so we ought to be on the regular schedule for the weekend at least. I didn't let the change upset me so that I put all kinds of not-my-food in my mouth. Not any actually. I didn't do DailyBurn yesterday but going to today. Because of the speed in which I gathered up my stuff to come to Mom's I didn't bring the Bible study I typically work on early mornings so I am without that this morning. More time to coach myself into doing it. Two days ago I turned on the workout session, watched it a couple of minutes, and then turned it off. I am still learning to be disciplined regarding consistent physical exertion.
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rejoicealways8
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 2, 2014 5:44:24 GMT -6
Cheryl, thanks for starting the new thread including Darrin's opening post on NK. I reread it every month.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 9:51:09 GMT -6
I made scrambled eggs with scallions and bacon cheddar early this morning. That bacon cheddar is really good! Still a little hungry, I may eat some plain Greek yogurt to take the edge off my appetite.
Even if I don't lose any more weight, I've come to appreciate how much better I feel on LC. I may have a higher carb day once in awhile, but I don't think I can go back to eating carbage every day. It's just not worth feeling poorly.
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rejoicealways8
State
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 2, 2014 10:38:03 GMT -6
I did decide today's food is a fat fast day and that I didn't do DailyBurn. Ha!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 13:41:24 GMT -6
I did decide today's food is a fat fast day and that I didn't do DailyBurn. Ha! It's great that the fat fast works so well for you. I'm a little envious because every time I try to fat fast, I end up hungry from lack of protein. I ate Greek yogurt for a snack, then had a bacon cheeseburger and coleslaw for lunch. I did eat half a bun with the burger, but stayed within my carb limit. I also ate a little of the TJ's dark chocolate, and liked it much better than Lindt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 10:29:30 GMT -6
I didn't eat past lunch yesterday, just wasn't hungry. This morning I made a flax wrap and ate it with peanut butter, bacon, and half an apple (not all together). That was nearly 3 hours ago and I'm still pleasantly full. I ended up taking Pamprin for PMS symptoms, and it's helping along with eating lower carb.
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rejoicealways8
State
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Plan: Carnivory
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 3, 2014 11:58:08 GMT -6
Following the lead of your hungriness is so wonderful Bunniee. Exciting to hear it is working for you to say "no, I am not hungry" and then not eat. Yea!
I ate too many calories yesterday to call it a fast -- even though I did have 95% fat. I ate too many macadamia nuts. Lotso many. I did eat the usual amount of calories for the weight I am shooting for. On a fat fast it is to be no more than 1000 calories. Tonight I am meeting some girlfriends for dinner out, listening to a jazz band. I know what my best choices are at that restaurant and won't have any difficulty choosing them. I will have a glass or two of wine. I won't get on the scale in the morning.
As it turns out this coming week is going to be a sort of staycation for me. One sister is coming in tomorrow for two, possibly three nights. My other sister is coming in Friday for two nights. I will have my usual Thursday night thrown in meaning I'll be sleeping at my house for most of the week. Yea!
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storytha
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Post by storytha on Aug 3, 2014 14:24:13 GMT -6
Hope everyone's having a great weekend. DS & DH finished their play last night. Glad to have them home more. I've been doing really well with my food. Friday: cals 1126 Fat 70.02 Carbs 19.45 Prot 104.18 B- coffee w/ HWC & CO, LC yogurt L- chicken breast, green beans, water, protein shake D- taco meat, cheese, salsa, sour cream, black olives
Saturday: cal 1231 Fat 99.48 Carb 33.25 Prot 52.78 B- coffee w/ HWC &CO L- hot dogs w/ ketchup D- chicken Caesar salad S- cheese, almonds and water water water. Except for my one coffee in the morning I am drinking only water. I've cut out my minimum 32oz-64 oz/day diet coke addiction and no alcohol. I'm peeing clear and like every 30 minutes but i'm feeling good! I've also started moving daily. Not for weight loss but for heart health. Friday was on my elliptical and Sat a walk along the river with DD.
Hope you have a great Sunday.
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Post by clueless on Aug 3, 2014 15:53:28 GMT -6
You guys are all doing great! A walk along the river sounds nice storytha. I have seriously been slacking on my water. I have not been getting in nearly the exercise I was. I have been painting all the time. Gonna have to get off my butt. I got my professional quality paints yesterday, I have only ever used student grade. Wow, I can tell a big difference. I sold 2 paintings last week. Hooray! Have fun tonight Pam, sounds like a great time. Oh man the tomatoes this year a absolutely the best ever, been eating them all day. YUM!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 18:19:54 GMT -6
I've eaten all this today and I'm still kind of hungry. I just finished my snack and will wait a little while to see if I really want dinner.
Breakfast - flax wrap with peanut butter & bacon, half an apple, coffee with half & half
Lunch - bunless cheeseburger, poached egg
Snack - pork rinds with cream cheese and salsa
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rejoicealways8
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Plan: Carnivory
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 4, 2014 6:46:03 GMT -6
Happy Monday all.
I switched this morning to the "True Beginner" on DailyBurn today. I didn't want to do the 15-minute workout that was being offered up today. Many of those are very punching and jumping around. Better to do something than allow my natural tendency of "I don't want to do that" win. The program I did today was about 30 minutes focused on stability and mobility. Reminiscent of tai-chi. It was great that they had people who are obviously not gym rats as the people along with the leader. A fat girl, an older lady, and a big guy working on his mobility after a car wreck a year ago. I am liking the ability to jump around to different types of workouts to keep me interested.
Had fun last night. Ate Caprese salad as my meal. Couple glasses of wine. No difficulty ignoring the free bread.
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gretalyn
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Post by gretalyn on Aug 4, 2014 7:54:00 GMT -6
Hi All! Sorry that I "disappeared" there for awhile. I've still been doing the NK diet and exercising not quite as often as I was for awhile there, but not bad. I'm not sure why I haven't managed to find time to check in here, but I'm going to try to do better about that. Miss you guys! Cheryl, your watercolors are AMAZING! My daughter is a budding artist, so I can't wait to show her your work. Trader Joe's -- yeah, that place is always packed. It doesn't matter when you go, it is absolutely stuffed full of people, and so it is so hard to take your time and browse and discover all the cool things that they have to offer. Wishing everyone a healthy and successful day! G.
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Post by clueless on Aug 4, 2014 9:54:10 GMT -6
Thanks gretalyn. It was pretty scary to post my work. When your family is your critique that is one thing but putting your work up for other to see can be scary. What is your daughter's favorite medium? I am excited about this fall. My art teacher from high school is now the department head at the community college. We used to get together and paint once a week. We are going to start back up this fall. It is like getting a private art lesson. I am so blessed!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 11:29:42 GMT -6
I made scrambled eggs and bacon for breakfast, but forgot to bring anything for lunch. I'm snacking on peanuts and popcorn. A little carby but still within limits.
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gretalyn
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Post by gretalyn on Aug 4, 2014 11:45:53 GMT -6
Thanks gretalyn. It was pretty scary to post my work. When your family is your critique that is one thing but putting your work up for other to see can be scary. What is your daughter's favorite medium? I am excited about this fall. My art teacher from high school is now the department head at the community college. We used to get together and paint once a week. We are going to start back up this fall. It is like getting a private art lesson. I am so blessed!!! Yeah, I can imagine that it must be pretty nerve-wracking at first to put your work out there publicly. I hope that the response so far has been good, because your work is truly impressive! My daughter's favorite is manga, but she also enjoys Chinese brush painting. She takes classes from time to time in other techniques and media as well. She generally prefers drawing over painting, but she's quite good at both. How fun that you'll get to work with your former teacher again!
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storytha
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Post by storytha on Aug 4, 2014 16:11:37 GMT -6
You guys are all doing great! A walk along the river sounds nice storytha. I have seriously been slacking on my water. I have not been getting in nearly the exercise I was. I have been painting all the time. Gonna have to get off my butt. I got my professional quality paints yesterday, I have only ever used student grade. Wow, I can tell a big difference. I sold 2 paintings last week. Hooray! Have fun tonight Pam, sounds like a great time. Oh man the tomatoes this year a absolutely the best ever, been eating them all day. YUM!! Cheryl Hurray for selling two! I really liked them! gretalyn Yesterday start ok, until I forgot to eat breakfast or lunch and then went to the mall around 3:00. Gah! The food smelled great but I'm so proud of myself, I didn't eat anything! I even bought DS a soft pretzel (yum) I didn't even sneak a bite! But my numbers are kinda low. Sunday: Cals 968 Fat 78.88 Cars 24.97 Prot 40.55 B- Coffee w/ HWC & CO L- one parmesian chrisp D- 1/2 Chicken caesar salad, vienna sausages, mayo S- dill pickles & pickle juice. Around dinner time I started freezing & running a slight fever. After a couple of hours I drank some pickle juice and felt better quickly. "Atkins flu". I hadn't been taking my potassium since Wed (ran out), I don't know if that would contribute. But I went to bed at a decent hour and am feeling great today. I just gotta remember to eat. I put beach pictures as my computer wallpaper to help me remember my goal of the beach trip next year. Makes me smile. Have a great rest of your Monday. PS-DS's play is over, Imma change my avitar cuz it kinda freaks me out.
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gretalyn
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Post by gretalyn on Aug 4, 2014 17:17:17 GMT -6
I put beach pictures as my computer wallpaper to help me remember my goal of the beach trip next year. Makes me smile. That is a pretty awesome reward to look forward to!
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Post by clueless on Aug 4, 2014 18:06:18 GMT -6
Thanks gretalyn. It was pretty scary to post my work. When your family is your critique that is one thing but putting your work up for other to see can be scary. What is your daughter's favorite medium? I am excited about this fall. My art teacher from high school is now the department head at the community college. We used to get together and paint once a week. We are going to start back up this fall. It is like getting a private art lesson. I am so blessed!!! Yeah, I can imagine that it must be pretty nerve-wracking at first to put your work out there publicly. I hope that the response so far has been good, because your work is truly impressive! My daughter's favorite is manga, but she also enjoys Chinese brush painting. She takes classes from time to time in other techniques and media as well. She generally prefers drawing over painting, but she's quite good at both. How fun that you'll get to work with your former teacher again! I had not heard of magna. That is very cool. I would love to see her work. My daughter is into art too. She is really good. I think she can do anything. She creates clothes, does paintings and zentangles. She does it all. They don't have art classes within her early college program at the high school level but she should get to take some college art classes next year.
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Post by clueless on Aug 4, 2014 18:09:47 GMT -6
You guys are all doing great! A walk along the river sounds nice storytha. I have seriously been slacking on my water. I have not been getting in nearly the exercise I was. I have been painting all the time. Gonna have to get off my butt. I got my professional quality paints yesterday, I have only ever used student grade. Wow, I can tell a big difference. I sold 2 paintings last week. Hooray! Have fun tonight Pam, sounds like a great time. Oh man the tomatoes this year a absolutely the best ever, been eating them all day. YUM!! Cheryl Hurray for selling two! I really liked them! gretalyn Yesterday start ok, until I forgot to eat breakfast or lunch and then went to the mall around 3:00. Gah! The food smelled great but I'm so proud of myself, I didn't eat anything! I even bought DS a soft pretzel (yum) I didn't even sneak a bite! But my numbers are kinda low. Sunday: Cals 968 Fat 78.88 Cars 24.97 Prot 40.55 B- Coffee w/ HWC & CO L- one parmesian chrisp D- 1/2 Chicken caesar salad, vienna sausages, mayo S- dill pickles & pickle juice. Around dinner time I started freezing & running a slight fever. After a couple of hours I drank some pickle juice and felt better quickly. "Atkins flu". I hadn't been taking my potassium since Wed (ran out), I don't know if that would contribute. But I went to bed at a decent hour and am feeling great today. I just gotta remember to eat. I put beach pictures as my computer wallpaper to help me remember my goal of the beach trip next year. Makes me smile. Have a great rest of your Monday. PS-DS's play is over, Imma change my avitar cuz it kinda freaks me out. Thank you storytha. Congrats on making it thru the mall without the pretzel or the other great smelling carby foods!! Hooray! Beach pictures are a great idea. You could also get some cocoa butter or some tanning lotion to smell while you visualize your skinny self walking on the beach.
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rejoicealways8
State
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 4, 2014 19:01:49 GMT -6
Great idea, Cheryl, to Storytha to add something with beach aroma to help her visualize smaller, toned self on the beach in a year.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 20:16:55 GMT -6
I made tacos for dinner and still managed to keep my carb count at 50 g for the day. Trying to use up what I have in the refrigerator since I'm moving this weekend. I'm glad I scheduled a few days off work (before and after the move), so I won't have to rush at the last minute.
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rejoicealways8
State
Posts: 712
Joined: December 2013
Location: UnderTheBigBlueTexasSky
Stats: 151/129/115
Plan: Carnivory
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Post by rejoicealways8 on Aug 5, 2014 5:09:31 GMT -6
Smart girl you are, Bunniee. That move business can be such a trouble. Glad you can take time off to do the move without total craziness.
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